In honor of Women's History Month, Dr. Mary Goldberg continues her chat with three dynamic women in our latest episode, "This Is How We Do It." Find out what makes rehab tech unique in its path to market, when to engage other sectors, their IP challenges and more. Our guests include Karin Leire from Permobil, Dr. Laura Rice from the University of Illinois and Dr. Shantha Sarangapani, Founder and CEO of ICET, Inc.
Host: Dr. Mary Goldberg, Co-Director of the IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh
Guests: Karin Leire, Vice President of Research and Innovation at Permobil; Dr. Laura Rice, Associate Professor at the University of Illinois, Associate Director of the Center on Health, Aging, and Disability, and Interim Director of Master of Public Health and Master of Health Administration Programs; and Dr. Shantha Sarangapani, Founder & CEO of ICET Inc., a growing contract R&D company aggressively developing new ideas, concepts and technologies in the areas of biomedicine, energy, and environment.
Karin Leire | LinkedIn
Dr. Laura Rice | Lab Website, LinkedIn
Dr. Shantha Sarangapani | ICET Inc Website, LinkedIn
IMPACT Center | Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter
Timestamps:
01:02 What is unique about rehab tech and its path to market?
02:40 From concept to prototype to market
04:12 Pushing for the greater masses
06:48 Collaborations with Industry
10:24 When to engage other sectors
11:45 Intellectual Property Challenges
14:32 Large company secret sauce
SPEAKERS
Shantha Sarangapani, Laura Rice, Karin Leire, Mary Goldberg
Mary Goldberg 00:03
The IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh supported by the National Institute of Disability, Independent Living, and Rehabilitation Research, proudly present ImpacTech. On today's episode, "This is How We Do It," we continue our chat with Karen Leire and doctors Laura Rice and Shantha Sarangapani. Recorded remotely from my soundproof bedroom closet in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. This is your host, Dr. Mary Goldberg, and welcome to our 14th episode of the ImpacTech podcast series.
Mary Goldberg 00:40
We're gonna shift gears a little bit to discuss the process to market for rehab tech and assistive tech andShantha, I'm gonna come back to you about your development experience, since it is so diverse. Would you mind sharing what is unique about rehab tech and its path to market?
Shantha Sarangapani 01:02
As I said, this is my first NIDILRR grant that I'm working on. As, as I described earlier, our model is licensing model. So we have the go to market strategy is to bring the technology to a certain stage where we can do a demonstration and probably some clinical data, and go with that data to the larger company, and ask them about their interest. I mean, they've already shown interest in the project. So now we have to convince them to put some money into the project, and co-develop it with us. So that is the strategy. And again, you know, we need, I've hired a business development consultant, who is constantly looking for partnerships. And we also have like offshore technologies, when we do a project, you being an ideas person, always some of the new ideas come in, and then we try to develop those and try to get companies interested in those. So at least we keep them updated. You know, look, we're not revealing all our formula, everything, but at least we say this is what we're working on. Would your company be interested in, in taking it further? Things like that. I think business development person is a very important employee one should have. But unfortunately, you know, we cannot hire them full time. But I do have a couple of consultants who, who helped me so.
Mary Goldberg 02:40
Thank you. And Karin, obviously, you are a representative from one of those larger companies. So I understand how it works when a small business brings an idea to you, how does it work from sort of concept to prototype to eventually getting out on the market? When it's cultivated all in house at Permobil? Or is it?
Karin Leire 03:06
Yeah, so I can start from I can start from the from the perspective of you know, when someone approaches us, it's very common that some that we get approached with something that by the inventor, the one contacting us forces finds it done like this, you just produce this and then you're done. And us being being very, very skilled in the in, you know, in the long process that it takes to get a product to market which say then that the you know that industrialization process is much longer than than one can think. So, then it then it really needs that it really needs to be a good a good case with it. So before answering the question, I want to make the addition as well that is specific for assistive technology, we are on a global basis, challenged by the reimbursement systems.
Karin Leire 04:12
Because we have reimbursement systems where the product performance isn't viewed upon enough, the products are are seen to be safe, but the expectations on on the product don't go much further than you know being safe and providing mobility if we talk about if we talk about wheelchairs, so therefore we also know that when we have a reimbursement that's really on the basic level and we have products that not yet get full recognition for what they do in the field. And then when the new innovation comes on top of that, we for many, very many cases know that we will not be able to charge anything additional for this, because it's unfortunately, that way that the reimbursement systems look. And we're also if we see in the US where we have the completely financial decision being made by a, you know, dealer in between, in where you disregard, where you can disregard the, the user needs that you want to meet with the, with the product, that makes it even more challenging for us. And when it makes the, you know, the barrier higher for us to add something new. So, to the question on how we do it, it's very much that we use the, our existing technology, and, and step by step build on to that. So that we we try to instead of shooting one individual to the moon, we're trying to push the the greater the greater mass one step further up until the innovation part that that can then seem disappointing to, to the, to the innovators, because it's like, why don't you want to have this cool thing. But that's the thing I have really gotten away from the cool things because the cool things can't be you can't get them as a as a user, I even hate showing something that we might do in the future for for for to a user because they get super excited. But then it's like telling a kid to go into a candy store. It's like you can't have anything
Mary Goldberg 06:48
So disheartening. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Laura, from where you sit, you know, we are sometimes in this like ivory tower, right? Where it's, it's sort of all about the the cool idea, like that's what's likely to get funded. And we are encouraged to think in many ways, like pie in the sky. So seeing some of these barriers, like, you know, the reimbursement challenge, for example, how does that impact the way that you might innovate and have some of your prior collaborations with industry and I know you've collaborated with current in particular, helped to shape the innovative or creative process for you?
Laura Rice 07:33
Yeah, I definitely agree. Because the the grants that get funded are usually very, very exciting, very, very much the cool things, and it is hard. So I rely a lot on my clinical experience, as a physical therapist, I really look to think about, you know, what do people truly need, what is going to benefit them. And I also think a lot about, you know, what can get out there in the relatively near future, it doesn't have to be something that comes out tomorrow. But I personally am not super involved in really long term projects, I like to be able to work on technology products, that that could be in somebody's hands in the next next five years, or something like that. So I really try to balance that. And so thinking about my clinical experience, what people really need, what we can get in the hands of people. And then like you said, I have collaborated quite a bit with industry. So I think I have a good sense from that those collaborations of what is really possible. And then kind of have to kind of meet that middle ground of, you know, trying to make something sound really cool and interesting, but also practical to a funding source. And I really take a lot of time to think about, again, my clinical background, and how this can be really useful. Do you often integrate a lot of end users into my grant proposals, to give input on the design of things to really get that user centered design part in it? So I guess in general, it's very much a balancing act, I try to pull in all of these different resources and come together in some sort of middle ground that that is practical, that can be useful. That is something that can be reimbursed, but also makes the funding source excited and happy.
Mary Goldberg 09:29
Sounds like engaging with each other, you know, so to speak, right as representatives of your greater sectors would really pay off. Of course, engaging end users also kind of at every stage of the process. At what stage do you think you should be engaging each other? I know that, Shantha also spoke to engaging consultants, for example, where she needs to kind of fill that skill gap. I think, Laura, you are fortunate you've worked really hard right to achieve, you've worn these different hats and you've been able to build up the the clinical scale, you have the research skills, you have the backing of academia behind you, plus, you've, you've worked with industry. So you already kind of understand this, this landscape. So maybe we could start with you at what stage do you think you need to engage other sectors in the innovation process?
Laura Rice 10:24
I think I think for the very beginning, as soon as I think about something, I just start talking to people about it. So I'm fortunate to again, have a lot of close people, close colleagues, friends, partners, and so on that, that I can bounce these ideas off of, I think probably the worst thing you can possibly do is just, like, go forward in this void. And like, Okay, this is my idea. I think it's awesome. I want to keep going with it. So I really start talking to people early on, even during, like current studies that I'm doing, I'll often talk to my study participants and be like, hey, you know, I was thinking about doing this, or, you know, this project, I'm thinking like, this could be the next step, or even like something that's related, you know, what do you think about that and try to get their input, do a ton of focus groups, usually, I feel like, almost every grant I write, like, the first stage is that I'm doing a systematic literature review and a focus group to get input into the product design or the education program design. And I think, you know, reaching out to industry is very important as well, again, you know, you want to know, early on, like, if this is actually going to be feasible. And if it's not, then we need to find a way another way to go. So I say early as possible.
Mary Goldberg 11:45
So Shantha, you spoke a little bit about the intellectual property challenges. And I'm curious how you've been able to navigate collaborations with those outside of your company in light of these challenges.
Shantha Sarangapani 11:59
In terms of collaborating with companies, basically, it is they look at our patent, but there is also what we call, like additional information, trade secrets that we that we have on our work is basically formulations. You know, we do like composition chemical compositions. So we sometimes they ask for samples that we send to them for testing. And they go through the testing and give us the data if they like it or not. So that kind of a thing. The the reason why I mentioned that was there was one company that even evaluated my cordings, everything. And then they took their own patent.
Mary Goldberg 12:51
I can only imagine how how frustrating, especially with limited resources, right, and in a small business, how that could be and really takes you back to square one.
Shantha Sarangapani 13:03
Oh, it's horrible. And it's called policing, right? Big companies, they do what's called policing, and they keep looking at if somebody's violating the patent and things like that, we really cannot afford to do that. And if somebody is, is trying to do something, just the claims or whatever, it may take a patent. We, we just I cannot afford anything, you know, so it has happened once and that's why, you know, I'm very careful about it, but I have a very good lawyer who is helping me right. So
Mary Goldberg 13:36
Yet another effective collaboration, engaging this Yes.
Shantha Sarangapani 13:41
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In fact, we are working with, with, with a company that is that has been acquired by a larger company. So hopefully, this this will be a good one, you know, so we are just waiting for the FDA approval of the, of the clinical trial. So
Mary Goldberg 14:02
Karin, I'm curious about how someone can be successful in coming to you in pitching a particular idea, you are in this kind of position of power of what's going to be considered within the company and you know, essentially effectively make it out to market. So how can they get their ducks in a row and in Could you comment on some of these successful pitches, so to speak or components that that these pitches have had?
Karin Leire 14:32
I am I am I have to tell the secret sauce. So, I mean, I agree with Laura, in, you know, engage, engage early to know that you are looking at some that you are actually going in the right direction. We often we often put successful researchers, successful clinicians together. I'd like you to talk and please come back, because it's, those two actually don't always match match, right. So that's so that's one part. The other thing is, if you were to, if this has been this is, of course, specific to assistive technology, but if you are to study some behavior, or the use of the technology and need something for that documentation, avoid spending time on like, building these random prototypes, which takes a lot of use of the research time to do. And in the end is nothing that a company would want to, to use when they implement it. So instead, instead, ask the manufacturer, about such a prototype because as an innovating company, that is what we have in our doors. And it's so that's one thing, it's much easier than to be successful when you come back with your results, if it's actually done on the, you know, on the prototype that already that already existed. And that is also to shunt us. Note, if I see from the from the corporate side, it is very common that when someone pitches an idea, we already had that idea. So it's not that it was taken, but he was actually not something that could even be patentable, because it's something that's generally seen as a challenge in in our field. But how to be successful in the in the, in the works, it's really start early, have a plan for how to prove the value, and also a plan for how you could drive advocacy around it. How can we, as we look at it from, you know, with a business case structure, how can we actually drive a change with this new innovation?
Mary Goldberg 17:08
It's been a pleasure speaking with all of you, thank you so much. I've learned so much from all of you, and it's been a pleasure. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we'll hear from more historically underrepresented innovators who have been successful in translating rehab tech to market. Until then keep making an impact in whatever you do.
Mary Goldberg 17:31
If you like ImpacTech, please review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you again for tuning in and continue to make an impact in whatever you do.
A quick note from our sponsors, IMPACT initiatives are being developed under a grant from the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research. NIDILRR is a center within the Administration for Community Living, Department of Health and Human Services. IMPACT initiatives do not necessarily represent the policy of NIDILRR, ACL or HHS, and you should not assume endorsement by the federal government and the same goes for the University of Pittsburgh. We would like to thank our impacted guests and our production team led by Dr. Michelle Zorrilla at the University of Pittsburgh Department of Rehabilitation Science and Technology.