In Part 2 of our crossover episode with Assistive Technology Update, we continue our engaging conversation with Brandon Biggs, creator of Audiom, and IMPACT mentor John McInerney. Picking up where we left off, Brandon dives deeper into what Audiom can—and cannot—do, offering an honest look at the capabilities and current limitations of this innovative audio-based map viewer for blind and visually impaired users. Co-hosted by Dr. Mary Goldberg and Josh Anderson, this episode continues to explore the intersection of user experience, accessibility, and innovation in blindness technology, with thoughtful insights from both Brandon and John on the evolving landscape of assistive tech.
Host(s): Dr. Mary Goldberg, Co-Director of the IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh, Josh Anderson, Program Director, Assistive Technology Specialist for Easter Seals Crossroads, and Host of Assistive Technology Update
Guest(s): Brandon Biggs, CEO of XR Navigation; John McInerney, IMPACT Mentor and Board Member
IMPACT Center | Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter
Easter Seals Crossroads | Website
Assistive Technology Update | Website, Podcast Apple Page
XR Navigation | LinkedIn, Website
Mary Goldberg 0:04
The IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh, supported by the National Institute of Disability Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, proudly presents ImpacTech. Welcome to Episode 28 of the ImpacTech Podcast. On today's first ever crossover episode, we had the honor of collaborating with the AT Update podcast hosted by Josh Anderson, and got to catch up with our former IMPACT trainee Brandon Biggs on his audio product recorded remotely from my soundproof bedroom closet in Pittsburgh, PA, this is your host, Dr. Mary Goldberg.
Mary Goldberg 0:02
The IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh, supported by the National Institute of Disability Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, proudly presents ImpacTech. Welcome to Episode 29 of the ImpacTech podcast. On today's episode maps for everyone we continue to chat with AT Update’s, Josh Anderson and Brandon Biggs from XR navigation and Smith Kettlewell Eye Institute. Recorded remotely from my soundproof bedroom closet in Pittsburgh, PA, this is your host. Dr, Mary Goldberg.
Josh Anderson 0:40
If you didn't listen to our show last week, make sure that you definitely go back and give it a listen. Also make sure that you listen to the ImpacTech podcast. We've got a link down in the show notes where you can go and check that out as well. We're gonna go ahead and pick up part of the the interview from last week, where Brandon is describing some of the things that audio is able to do and not able to do, and then we will get on with the rest of the interview directly after that. Again, if you didn't listen last week, make sure to go back and check that out. You can also check out the ImpacTech podcast, but right now, let's go ahead and get on with the show.
Brandon Biggs 1:13
Can use your phone as well to navigate around. So similarly to the computer there, there's a panel of buttons that show up on your touch screen, and you can double tap on, you know, the left button to move left one meter, or double tap and hold to repeatedly move around like one meter in one direction. But it does not sync with your current location indoors. It'll do it. It'll sync with your location outdoors. But GPS doesn't really work inside. And GPS is the only real free method for us to use. If you do want to have audio sync with an indoor experience, you need to ask a place like good maps to, you know, sync with the audio experience. And that's they do have a good maps version that you can use to, you know, navigate around the hotel with computer vision and so something like that could allow you to sync your location to audio. But they haven't. They haven't integrated with us yet. They need more people to ask for it. So that's kind of the if we want to be able to do that, that's the next, you know next step there.
John McInerney 2:22
Thank Thank you. So I do appreciate the fact that use an audience would take the place of a sighted guide to shepherd me around the hotel the first time so that I could orient myself. That would be extremely helpful in venues like that. Thank you.
Brandon Biggs 2:46
Yeah, absolutely. It can either take a guide, you know, this place, of a sighted person, orienting you to the hotel, or a tactile map, depending on your preference, but it's an individual tool that you don't need to know how to read braille to use. You can use your braille display to read Braille, you know, coming through your screen reader. So if you're deaf blind, it's definitely possible to use it as well, but it and you know, it does take a little bit of training to use because blind people just aren't used to reading maps. I think they view less than one map a year on average. And so it's a it's a thing you need to kind of train your brain to be able to be able to do like sighted people have.
Josh Anderson 3:26
Brandon, how has audio changed since its first kind of iteration?
Brandon Biggs 3:30
Oh, man.
Josh Anderson 3:32
Too big of a question?
Brandon Biggs 3:33
Yeah, the basically, the fundamental experience hasn't changed. What's changed is that we've allowed a lot of more advanced functionality so and we've changed the user experience a lot. I guess the biggest way that it's changed is we are fully WCAG triple A compliant. And what that means is that you can access every aspect of audio through text, completely through text, every feature on the map, every element is fully accessible through text. There's no areas where sound is is important or required or vision is required. We've also added on the visual experience for sighted users. We added on that touch screen experience. We've added on a way for people to follow routes on outdoor maps and campus maps, specific ones that that that's been enabled on, and we've allowed you to be able to rotate your character around. So originally, we were using what's called a grid mode experience where you were kind of locked to the north orientation. But now you can switch to what's called first person mode and use your left and right arrow keys to spin around towards, you know, different objects and whatnot, just kind of like you're really moving around the space. And then you can use the up arrow. To move forward and the back arrow to move backward, rather than using the arrow keys to kind of move around as if it's, it's a, you know, you're feeling a tactile map. So those are a few different changes that we've made since the beginning. But there's a much, much more. We even have a map drawing tool that you can create your own maps, non visually as well. We've also started look doing other diagrams, not just maps, you know, like engineering diagrams, or, you know, circuit boards, anatomical diagrams, blueprints, you know, architectural diagrams. So those are other things that we've we've started working on.
Josh Anderson 5:35
That's awesome. So you're able to design your own house with Audiom now.
Brandon Biggs 5:39
That's the that's the goal, yeah.
Josh Anderson 5:43
I just know that's where you started. So, you know, saying that was on the win naval. So I love that you've, you've been able to build that all in there.
Mary Goldberg 5:50
What has driven those changes that you've made to the product over the years? What's motivated them?
Brandon Biggs 5:56
Lots and lots and lots of user testing. We've ran around nine academic studies and CO designs to get what people think of particular interface elements on over 100 blind participants and over 30 sided participants. And so some of the CO designs that we've done, that's where we started. We started with CO designs. And CO designs are really where you ask people to design an interface, give, give feedback and on, you know, features and functionality they want. Well, you're still in early stages, so they can give a lot of, you know, strong feedback on an interface that might not be perfect. And so you're, you're giving early access to, you know, totally blind folks or low vision users, to, you know, give, give their feedback. And so that's driven a lot of the interface, conventions and elements of what we've added in, and why we've prioritized specific things. And then for the reason why we started working with cited participants is because we wanted to demonstrate equivalent purpose, and that's where we were starting to kind of go more into this systematic approach of demonstrating equal access. And the reason why that's important is because the Americans with Disabilities Act and other legislation around the world use the web content accessibility guidelines as the core framework. And the very one of the very first items in there is that any non text content needs to have a text alternative that serves the equivalent purpose. But nobody's defined that, and so we in our most recent study, we had sighted participants, look at a visual map and look at an audio map, and each one, they answered 15 questions. They were separate maps, and then we compared the accuracy of their responses. And there were things like, what state border in California has the highest number of COVID cases? And so we were able to demonstrate there was no significant difference between audio and the visual map. And so now future work, we're probably going to expand that out to more participants, and, you know, validate it with more difficult questions, that kind of thing.
Josh Anderson 8:15
Brandon, I know that's going to be very hard to answer, but do you have a favorite map you've been able to work on?
Brandon Biggs 8:20
Well, I definitely say my favorite maps are the ones that have the most sounds. So my two favorite ones right now are this. This one our demo map, of course, which is of the magical bridge playground in Palo Alto, California. And so if you go on to audio.net, for personal use, or XR navigation.io/audio-demo, they're both going to show the same map, and it's going to give you a interactive tutorial where you can learn how to use audio. And that is an actual, real live location, and it has lots and lots of sounds, and it's very detailed. And then we just did a project with vision Ireland to make one of their centers a map of one of their centers, and it has like a microcosm of all public transit that you can think of. So they've got a minute like an airplane, a part of an airplane, inside that center, and they've got a bus station in that center, and they've got a subway in that center and a couple busses. And so that map has all kinds of really interesting sounds, and you can go around it and and explore all those different types of public transit on that map. And it's really, really cool. So I would say those are kind of my two favorite maps at the moment.
John McInerney 9:42
So Brandon, I have a question. So as an older adult, I have not been into gaming for blind individuals and audio. A large part of that is based on the gaming. Principles, as you described early on. So what advice would you give to me as an older adult, to train myself to become proficient in using the audio technology? I mean, would you say, well, go play. Go get these games, A, B, C, D, and start using them, or follow the tutorial that you have on your website. Or what? What would you recommend to someone like myself?
Brandon Biggs 10:33
Everyone needs to do the tutorial, even if you know how to use games, because audio has very unique conventions that you don't really find in many other tools, and it combines a lot of the gaming conventions that people are used to. So it will take you about two minutes to go through, two to three minutes to go through the interactive tutorial. And I recommend that for everyone, really, the best way to learn is to find a map that you're motivated to view. So whether that's if you're going to CSUN or another conference like the International Federation of the Blind conference, or something like that, you really need to have a map that you're motivated to learn and that you sit down take the time to really kind of understand the conventions. Once you get faster at using audio, then you kind of just can start building that mental map. It becomes much, much quicker to to, you know, virtually explore and kind of understand what the map is showing. You know, I've been looking at audio maps for the last three or four years now, and I can look at a map and really quickly understand what's going on and learn out, you know, where the booths are in the exhibit hall. I can find my booth without asking anybody, you know. I can tell you that my booth is at the very top of the Grand Ballroom on the left third booth down, you know, that kind of thing. And it's real easy for me to get that information very quickly into audio. And so you just need to kind of practice with it. But it's definitely an area where we need to do more work on learning how to best communicate this type of these types of conventions for older adults, because that is definitely a super, super important group that is not represented in our development team. And so we need to, you know, spend a lot more time and effort making sure that it's usable and understandable to folks who aren't aren't part of our development team. Our development team is mostly young, blind folks, so totally blind folks, so that's a different group of people. So we've done a lot of CO designs with older folks, and it does work. It's not pleasant at the beginning, but it definitely is possible if you spend some time and do it. And so it just takes, it takes it takes time.
Mary Goldberg 12:51
So John and Brandon, given this perceived guess, I'm insinuating, you know, some like a potential generational divide, both from your experiences with lived experience with visual impairment, but also as innovators. What kind of challenge or opportunity does that present for the future as software specifically, I think, in this general application area, continues to evolve.
Brandon Biggs 13:22
Well any any new interface, I think, requires a lot of new training and getting used to. So the smartphone required a lot of new conventions to get used to. Even if you're learning how to read tactile maps and Braille, that is a real big learning curve. I think audio is something that takes a lot less learning curve. You can do it on your own, and you don't need a teacher of the blind to teach you how to do that, whereas you do need somebody to teach you learn how to read tactile graphics. So, you know, it's one of these things where, I think, you know, something like audio with more, you know, co design and iterating on the tutorial and and techniques, and just observing older individuals, we can make the interface much easier to use and get give them the information quicker that they're really interested in. And but, you know, it is, again, just going to be a lot more iteration.
John McInerney 14:23
I would agree. Brandon and I've done a little work teaching older folks on VoiceOver on an iPhone, things like that. And it can be pretty daunting if you've recently lost your site through something like macular degeneration, or, you know, some disease that impacts older adults. So the guidance I would give people is you need to be patient and you need to be. Persistent. And as Brandon said, You need to find something or a map that you really want to learn. You know, I've been thinking about examples. You know, we just recently had a national election, you know. You know, on all the news broadcasts, they show blue and red states and how many electoral votes each one has. I mean, that would be a great map for an older adult, because you can't get trends within the 48 contiguous states as to, you know, what's blue, what's red, for example, you know, we kind of know, and I hate to talk politics that the two coasts and tend to be blue. But other than that, I can't tell you what the trend looks like through the through the US and something like that would be a great learn, learning tool for an older adult. I think anyway.
Brandon Biggs 16:10
We actually made a live election result map this last November, and our problem is publicity because, you know, we don't we're a really small company. We don't have as many people following us, you know. And so when we managed to get out that live election result map, it actually took us a while to figure out how to get access to the data, and we managed to get it like right on election day working and so, and we never really actually had it working until the election results started coming in, and so we had to make a few little changes when that happened. But next year, or next four years, or whatever, whenever we end up doing another live election result map, it'll definitely be up. But if you are interested in getting election results for your county, for local elections, that's also something that can be created in audiom, and we can work with your local precincts to make sure that that's fully usable.
Josh Anderson 17:08
That is, that is super cool. Brandon, John, this questions for for both of you, just because, as a creator, and Jon is somebody who's been involved with a lot of you know, kind of bringing things to market. What's, what's some advice you could offer to someone out there who maybe has a great idea or sees a need that's not met, or just, you know, wants to make a piece of assistive technology or something that can help folks. What's some advice you could give them from some lessons maybe you've learned along the way?
Brandon Biggs 17:35
If you are disabled and you're solving a problem for yourself, kind of similar to what we're doing with Audiom, then you definitely need to run with that. And, you know, build out the minimum prototype of that interface that works for you, or even have a demo that works for you. And then this is where, you know, academia is really helpful. You can, you can get credit building that kind of interface for a master's degree or a PhD degree and in something like, you know, human centered computing or or rehabilitation research for more engineering, physical engineering products. And so that's kind of how a lot of people in this space get started and get the credentials that they need to then go out and get grant funding and talk to investors. It's really, really hard to get investors, and if you don't have a working prototype in the assistive technology space, and then it's even more difficult to get customers, and, you know, whatnot, if you don't have, if you don't have a product so, you know, getting, if you're disabled, in solving a problem for yourself, I would definitely, you know, reach out to places like the impact center or, you know, different incubators that are out there for early startups. And then, you know, maybe look into getting your degree in academia so you can get some of these grants that we're talking about. If you're not disabled or you're solving a problem for somebody that's outside of your own personal use, you have to get lots of user feedback to make sure that you're solving a problem, because a lot of people will come into this space and say, Hey, I've got a really great idea. Let's, let's get blind people psyched again, and using, using AI. And there's potential there, but it's not a silver bullet. AI is really great for like, these meta glasses that everybody's been talking about in the blindness community. I have them myself, and they're really great for reading large, long signs in museums. They are horrible, horrible at identifying objects. So even though the identifying objects is what they were demoed as, do not trust. That AI, because it is about 60% wrong. So anyway, that that's kind of been my experience,
John McInerney 20:07
I would agree with Brandon on the user input factor, because that that is essential, because even taking something simple, like websites, you know, a website can be WCAG, 2.1 double A compliant and meet all the criteria, but from a usability standpoint, with the screen reader, it can be terrible. So there's two aspects. There's the compliance aspect in this the usability aspect and the usability aspect is key. Another example that that I learned is that in if you use in sign language, that ASL and just showing the signs you know that you use with with your fingers, is just part of the equation, because I learned that a lot of people that that are hearing impaired, that use ASL, the gestures of The whole body, gestures are just as important. A simple example, you know that I learned is, you know, you can assign how, and it can mean two things, how are you? And if you ask the question, how, from a visual standpoint, you raise your eyebrows so someone doing ASL from a user standpoint, that that's another example where you really need user input, as Brandon said, to solve whatever accessibility issue you're trying To address.
Brandon Biggs 22:00
There's a famous example here at Georgia Tech where a professor was asked, back in, I think it was the late 90s or early 2000s he was built a lot of technology around wearables and AI, image recognition, computer vision, and they, he was asked, you know, oh, you know, Could you, could you work on this sign language interpreting things like, yeah, it'll take me about a year. I think I'll be able to to get a automatic sign language recognition tool. And it's over 20 years later, and they still haven't cracked the code. So, you know, it's really hard. And part of the reason, I think they've had difficulties, because they don't really have sign deaf people on their team, or native sign language speakers on their team. And so, you know, if you're building for, you know, deaf audience, you need CODAs or deaf people on your team that can actually guide the research. I think that's where you're going to get the biggest bang for your buck. And it's really like you need to have a disability led user led team. That's just critical.
Josh Anderson 23:08
Brandon, you mentioned this earlier, but could you tell the listeners again how they can find out more about Audiom?
Brandon Biggs 23:14
If you're blind, you can go to Audiom, audio m.net, and use audio for your own personal use, and we have a couple maps on there, and we have what we call our advocacy champion program, where we tell you how you can work with your any institution that has a map on their website, and contact them and advocate for a map. And then, if you're an institution with a map, please send us an email, or go to our website at XRnavigation.io, and you can, you can definitely learn a lot more information on the website about audio and the process. So we really work with any type of map and and we're really, you know, our vision is that every map is usable to everyone, and we're building the platform to make that happen.
Josh Anderson 24:04
Awesome, Mary, did you have anything else?
Mary Goldberg 24:06
Thank you. Yeah, no, we've we've really loved being part of this conversation and getting to know Brandon and see his product evolve over the years. It's been a real pleasure at the impact center and work with Jon as well on our advisory board, we can be reached at idea to impact.org our I'll call it an incubator, but we really have, we say, generally, it's a three stage training program that Brandon has participated in, kind of two times over. Does provide small awards to innovators like Brandon working in the at space that are looking to do some further refinement on their product, but really focus on what Brandon nailed on the head, which is making sure that they really, really understand their problem and make sure. There's a nice fit for the market as well. So yeah, if you're interested in learning more, please visit us there, and, of course, check out ImpacTech as well. Thanks so much for the opportunity today.
Josh Anderson 25:13
Thank you so much for the opportunity. Mary, John Brandon, even silent partner Michelle, that's on here that no one can hear but does all the work behind the scenes. Thank you all so much for being being part of this today, for letting me be a part of it. It's been an absolute pleasure, and hopefully we all get to do it again sometime.
Brandon Biggs 25:29
Thank you for having me.
Mary Goldberg 25:31
Be great, Josh, thank you. If you like impact, please review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you again for tuning in and continue to make an impact in whatever you do.
If you like, ImpacTech, please review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you again for tuning in and continue to make an impact in whatever you do. A quick note from our sponsors, IMPACTinitiatives are being developed under a grant from the National Institute on Disability Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research. NIDILRR is a center within the Administration for Community Living Department of Health and Human Services. IMPACT initiatives do not necessarily represent the policy of NIDILRR, ACL or HHS, and you should not assume endorsement by the federal government, and the same goes for the University of Pittsburgh. We would like to thank our ImpacTech guests and our production team led by Dr Michelle Zorrilla at the University of Pittsburgh, Department of Rehabilitation, Science and Technology.