Part 2: Dr. Mary Goldberg continues her chat with Dr. Cathy Bodine, Associate Professor and Director of the Center for Inclusive Design and Engineering at UC Denver. Listen as they talk about what to think about when it comes to open source innovation and sustainability, the Technology Act Programs, innovation trends, and how to know when to move on or stay motivated.
Host: Dr. Mary Goldberg, Co-Director of the IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh
Guest: Dr. Cathy Bodine, Associate Professor, Director, Center for Inclusive Design and Engineering
UC Denver - CIDE | Website
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Full Episode Transcript | PDF
Timestamps:
2:38 Advice to those making their technologies open source and how to think about sustainability.
4:40 Analyzing market share and the other critical components of a business plan.
11:01 The Technology Act Programs.
14:47 Innovation Trends in Academia.
17:35 Advice to women and other underrepresented innovators.
22:20 When is it time to move on to the next thing?
25:08 How to get or stay motivated after several rejections?
Mary Goldberg 0:06
The IMPACT Center at the University of Pittsburgh supported by the National Institute of Disability, Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, proudly present ImpacTech. Today's episode is Innovation for All with our guest, Cathy Bodine, Associate Professor at the University of Colorado and Director of the Center for Inclusive Design and Engineering. Recorded remotely from my soundproof bedroom closet in Pittsburgh, PA. This is your host, Mary Goldberg, and this is the episode four in the 2021 ImpacTech podcast series.
Hi, again, Cathy and thank you so much for joining us, again, we learned so much in our last conversation, especially about your innovation ecosystem, and how it supported innovators, especially in the assistive technology space. And in particular, the role that some of these collaborations have played both with industry and the tech transfer office in general, and thought that we could just continue that conversation.
Cathy Bodine 1:24
I think that sounds wonderful.
Mary Goldberg 1:26
So over time, at the IMPACT Center, we're seeing more and more open source technologies, especially apps, mobile applications, and we keep hearing from the innovators that we are serving and providing technical assistance to that they have just considered giving it away, they just want more and more people to use it. And you provided such an interesting case in our last discussion of how that really went wrong for you a huge missed opportunity of just giving it away. And I found this concerning from a couple of angles, certainly that one, but also relating to sustainability. So if this application that has just been given away, and that the innovator is no longer involved in is a real service to a client, an individual with a disability is relying on it but yet, it's it's no longer upkept, and now out of date, how detrimental that might be, so I'm wondering what kind of advice you give to those who are involved in or intend to make their technologies open source? And what kind of advice you give in particular related to sustainability?
Cathy Bodine 2:38
That's a great question, Mary. I think, what I find interesting that the talk, if you will, that I have with these these folks is, you need a business plan. You know, we talk a lot about a business plan for a for profit endeavor, right? Or for something we want to do in terms of setting up an organization. But if you're going to say, let's say you're going to set up a GitHub, and you're going to upload all these products that have been designed or developed, what's your plan? If you, you have to start with the end in mind, right? Good old Steven, what's his name for many years ago, this notion that you have to really be thoughtful and planful. And you have to develop a model that is going to support this product, because taking something away that really benefits an individual taking that away is is just frankly, it's cruel. So I always encourage folks to develop a business plan for that product, just as though they were going to put it in market. But what is your business plan for sustainability? And how is this going to work? And if you can't figure that out, then you really need to think about whether this is a good idea or not.
Mary Goldberg 3:52
Thanks, Cathy. Yeah, you're referring to Steve Blank. And
Cathy Bodine 3:56
Thank you!
Mary Goldberg 3:58
Sure. Yeah, we use his resources a lot in the IMPACT Center certainly wants to give credit where credit is due. Yeah, if any of our listeners are unfamiliar, that Steve Blank, and he has developed the lean Launchpad methodology, and so you can Google that. And so Cathy, in that instance, then if they're not thinking about it, they're not thinking about sustainability in that way, let's say, you know, a non business minded rehab engineer or assistive technology provider, what kinds of resources maybe outside of Steve Blank's do you recommend? And how do you teach them about analyzing market share and the other critical components of a business plan?
Cathy Bodine 4:40
So first and foremost is what we call you know, obviously discovery. And so many universities around the country are funded either through NIH, the National Science Foundation for something called I-Core. And you can look those up through the CTSA programs, the Clinical Translational Sciences programs that are available But the notion is to get out and interview, we require like a minimum of 30 interviews, where people go out and really get a handle on first and foremost, is this really a good idea? Number one, number two, how could this idea be better? And what is it that the market really wants, whether it's going to be sold or not sold? It's first and foremost is your idea as good as you think it is. And you need to discover what it is about your idea that has has weight or merit, and what doesn't, and how to make it better. So that's always step one, is get to know your customer, if you will. So that's the first piece. And then from that, it's really understanding. And so I joke with my students, it's the funnel method, Cathy's funnel method. But it's that notion of first and foremost at the larger scale, really defining the population or the group that you're trying to target with your product. And really understanding how many of those people live in the United States? How many live in developing countries? How many live in undeveloped countries?
Who are the, what's your population of interest? And then what is the ecosystem around them? What are they? What are they? Because the thing that people forget, is that folks, particularly those with disabilities, that disability existed, and the problems existed before you came up with this great idea. They've been dealing with it for a long time. What is their method for dealing with it? How are they getting by, quote, unquote? Or how are they thriving? Because they've already figured out a better solution than anything you might have to offer? So I really kind of forced that notions with the large top of the funnel, if you will, is this let's figure out who exist? And then what are the interventions, if you will, that currently are in place? And what works about that, and what doesn't work about that, so we begin to narrow it down and narrow it down. Once we know what works and what doesn't work, then we can determine if we have an idea that is going to facilitate where the barriers are, or where the true problem lies. And often, what we start out with is not what we end up with. And so then is there a critical need for this idea to to germinate and to turn into a product or an innovation of some sort? So that's kind of the methodology behind our madness, if you will.
Mary Goldberg 7:30
Thanks, Cathy. And do you find that tech transfer offices or, say, advisors through the icore programs or other support services, understand the market that is served by by assistive technologies?
Cathy Bodine 7:45
I think that's a great question. I think they're getting better. I do not think they, the majority fully understand. And that's why I, you know, we have to do our homework. And we have to package it and present it in a way that is continuing that educational process for tech transfer offices. And it's kind of frustrating, because theoretically, you should be able to go to the tech transfer office, and and say, here's the deal, you know, but but often there there is an educational component. And so my advice is not to get frustrated, but rather let's think about how we can bring them along with us. Because once they get used to understanding that there is a market, they're way more apt to go look for it themselves. And then to come back to you and say, Hey, we were approached by this indice, potential industry partner, we think your team would be a really good fit for this product. And so that gets intriguing.
Mary Goldberg 8:46
So we know that the market has traditionally been thought of sometimes as niche or small. But it sounds in that way that maybe it's more of an awareness issue or an attitude barrier, rather than it is just a concern about the size in general.
Cathy Bodine 9:06
Yeah, and I think and I think people with disabilities and many of my friends would argue that, you know, many decades ago, you know, there was a charity mentality, if you will, around disability. And that myth, that perpetuated myth of Oh, we have to help these people, I think, sadly, was a disservice. You know, that's not the case people with disabilities, people aging into disabilities, they just want a tool that's going to enable them to do what they need to do. And so I think recasting for you know, people that are not into our space, or maybe to have not ever really known too many people with disabilities, although that is also changing. They, they don't know what they don't know. And so you can either get frustrated that with that ignorance or that lack of knowledge that they have Or you can educate them, you can introduce them to someone who might use this product and have them explain why it's useful or not useful. Yeah, so I think it's all about really, it's a teaching moment, if you will, and we need to take full advantage of that.
Mary Goldberg 10:15
Thanks, Cathy. And I think one is certainly feeding the other, which is we're all getting older, living longer, and the likelihood of us incurring some kind of impairment throughout our lifespan, right is, is becoming more likely. And so perhaps that that can be used in those teaching moments also.
Cathy Bodine 10:35
Absolutely. You know, we, I, it worked. One thing I've done is, tell me, you know, kind of tell me about your experience with your mom, if it's someone my age or older, I know they've dealt with an aging parent. And that's a really good segue into saying, Well, you know, we're going to be just like that someday. How do you what do you want to do? And it's really interesting, if you can personalize it, it's gold.
Mary Goldberg 11:01
Absolutely. I wanted to go back to a conversation that we had before relating to the Tech Act, and the fact that it is present in every state and could be a mechanism for getting some of the assistive technologies to market and the fact that it is universally applicable, I thought it would be of interest to our listeners. And so if you wouldn't mind describing a little bit about how that works, and how you have used the act as a tool in your innovation ecosystem.
Cathy Bodine 11:37
Sure. And thank you for bringing the Technology Act programs to the surface. I appreciate that. As I said earlier, the Technology Act programs exist in every state and territory. They were originated in 1989, the first Technology Act programs were funded Senator Ted Kennedy and Tom Harkins, were actually the initial leaders, movers and shakers on this, if you will. And basically, the Technology Act programs are charged with facilitating access and awareness to the benefits of assistive technology for people aging into disability or people with disabilities. What that means at a very basic level, is that every tech ag program across the country knows and works directly with all of the disability related organizations they work with. Hopefully, they're working with the policymakers, the legislators in their state or territory, they are also working with individuals who have this huge range of of issues or disabilities, things like that. So where our Tech Act has been brilliant, actually, is for our product testing lab, our user experience, our usability testing our iterative design processes, we are so blessed, we can put out a single email, I remember one project we did for Comcast had to do with people with a very specific color blindness. And this was a few years ago, and we put out one email and we had 65 volunteers within like three days, all who fit the profile for our user testing process that we were engaged in at that time. So for people in the tech sector, who are trying to get into this space, or who are in this space and need assistance, the Tech Act Programs can help hopefully introduce you to your people within your population of interest. Most Tech Act personnel are highly motivated and highly skilled in a variety of technologies that are on the market. And they can provide very thoughtful content and access to a range of individuals.
Mary Goldberg 13:58
So it sounds like a great connection also bridging to our previous conversation about engaging in customer discovery. If these innovators have not yet reached out to the Tech Act personnel in their state, they certainly should to not only connect to a broad range of stakeholders, but potentially to also obtain some funding.
Cathy Bodine 14:21
Absolutely. That's a great thing to do for sure.
Mary Goldberg 14:24
And before we close out our conversation, I just wanted to pick your brain a little bit about some other general trends you're seeing related to innovators, specifically those that are residing in academic settings, and perhaps some of the facilitators and barriers that are impacting their ability to bring products, especially assistive technology products to market.
Cathy Bodine 14:47
Sure, I think just a couple of statistics for example, in 2019, the US Patent Office reported that 12.8% of receiving patents are new patents included women on the on the patent and and among new inventors on issued patents, so the ones that actually were fully patented, only 17.3% list women on the patent. That's just one example of a disparity, if you will. And it's even less so for people from underrepresented populations. So why is that? Well, it turns out there's a fair amount of research out there that demonstrates that at the assistant professor level in particular, as you're trying to get your research agenda and your career going, that's also the the timeframe of life where many women choose to start their family as you go from associate to full professor at that kind of range. It they're often women who are care provide caretaking for their, their parents and or they have children at home. So one of the biggest disparities is that innovation, and tech transfer commercialization all those pieces tend to not be incorporated into the promotion and tenure matrix. And so women have to make some tough decisions. People from underrepresented populations who feel that they have to really stick to the plan, in order to be successful, often forego, really cool ideas are really cool opportunities. And so one of the things that the National Science Foundation has funded this IPTV out of I believe it's Oregon, University of Oregon, Oregon State, I'm blanking. You might have to help me on that, Mary. But it is University in Oregon, to really investigate what's going on and to make recommendations. So they did a national survey, they published I believe, in 2018 2019, that really talked about where these promotion criteria can and should be adjusted. And of course, a key component of that is the reviewers. And so how do we educate the reviewers who are looking at something that's not quite as traditional as they typically run into? And how can we pull this innovation tech transfer notion into modern day universities. And so that's something we're really working on. And I think it's a very important metric to think about.
Mary Goldberg 17:35
Thanks so much, Cathy, this is something that we're acutely aware of at the IMPACT Center also, and really interested in continuing to, at minimum, build a repository for the resources that are out there for innovators that may be traditionally underrepresented, like both women and other underrepresented minorities. And I know that there's a great program out of Howard, for example, and I've been doing a little research and learning more about what's already out there. But that's really helpful to hear. And I guess, for a young woman in particular, you know, who is is at this stage in her life, I can certainly resonate as being a mom of two young kids and just gone through the Associate Professor transition myself and all the challenges that go along with it. What is some advice that you might give? I think we understand the barriers, we know that there's a bit of an image problem, right? If we're not seeing other women like ourselves out there doing this, and what that might do to confidence and that person's social capital and other things. What, what other advice would you give?
Cathy Bodine 18:49
I think the, the advice I took, which really changed me was I was kind of advised to seek out successful women in all walks of life. And so I have, over the years developed these amazing relationships with these women who are successful in industry. I'm friends with a woman who is a massively successful minister, who's grown this church just like a business. I mean, it's just really interesting. Yeah. And then I'm blessed with some deep friendships with women who are physicians. And, you know, we get together we brainstorm, we talk, we share our stories. And we get ideas and tips. And knowing that you have this group of like minded people behind you and with you, enables you to take a deep breath and to go back in again and maybe with a different tactic. So that's one key piece. And the other thing that I would highly advise particularly women to do is to really force yourself, frankly, to sit down with your department chair with your your faculty mentor. And really talk to them. What does innovation mean to them? What do they find acceptable? Where are the barriers, so that you can continue the dialogue, you can continue the conversation and hopefully begin to help move them just a bit in a direction that is very useful for all faculty. And frankly, it helps to find a male mentor, who has been successful, that you can interview. You know, someone that you can talk to, and say, hey, how did you do this? And if you were in my shoes, what would you do differently. And a lot of these guys are really willing to support and help. And I see more and more of that. So I encourage all women to, to, to just really look at your community, you don't have to go it alone.
Mary Goldberg 21:04
Cathy, I love that advice. Thank you. And what I heard you say to synthesize is to build a network, and that would be of those who are sort of your contemporaries, but also those that have been down the path before you that may share some demographic characteristics with you, but who may also be different to make sure that you're getting these diverse perspectives, to stick with it? And perhaps don't take no for an answer. And we'll come back to that one. I have some questions about that. And also for these innovators, to align themselves with the value systems of perhaps their department, their universities, and their greater communities, which I think is very sage advice, also. So thank you for all of that. I think this will be helpful for innovators in general at any age. And coming back to that don't take no for an answer piece, when you have advised an innovator that that you think has maybe exhausted their their options, or they've say they really owned an idea believed in the idea, but for whatever reason, it just wasn't really working. When is it time to move on to the next thing? And how do you give that type of advice?
Cathy Bodine 22:20
That's a great question, Mary, it all goes back to that early stage discovery. And that, ideally, you're going to capture fatal flaws, or the lack of interest, or whatever it is early on. But let's say you get through discovery, the people you interview, love it, you know, you're trying, you're trying, the key thing, again, is that preparation so that you decrease the odds of failure. But when you just can't get something going, there comes a point when you have to really look at the metrics, if you will. So I always try to get folks to have their metrics in mind before they get started. So what is a deal breaker so that if you hit that wall, you know what it is. It's much more readily acceptable if you've already figured out in advance, this isn't going to go anywhere. Now I will say I've seen situations where someone has moving along, it looks like fundings out there. It looks like everything's good to go. And things fall apart. It's really interesting. We do this podcast once a month here called Ask the Expert. And we bring in all kinds of crazy experts on all kinds of things. We bring in a lot of industry partners, and people that have been very successful. And we always say, what's the most important thing for being successful? And they invariably, it's never the product, it's always the team. And I've learned that as a key component of identifying failure. And the first thing to think about in terms of failure is do you have the right team. And if you don't have the right team, if you change your team, will that change the outcome? If it's not going to change the outcome, because for whatever reason, this product is just not a go, then it's time to walk away. And it's a really hard pill to swallow. But we should celebrate failure also. And that's something you know, we don't do in our, you know, our scientific journals. There's a whole body of literature on why don't we publish bad results, right. Same thing with innovation. Sometimes you just have bad results. And I try to at least in academia, I put it in that context of understanding. Sometimes your research doesn't work out and you have to move on.
Mary Goldberg 24:36
That's great. It's very easy. It's easier to just be discouraged and throw in the towel than it is to just keep on going.
Cathy Bodine 24:45
Absolutely.
Mary Goldberg 24:46
So yeah, that's that's great advice. And so then, how do you motivate I guess on the flip side, someone who has received rejection over rejection yet, you believe that the idea still really has merit what what other avenues should they pursue? Or what advice Have you given in that type of scenario?
Cathy Bodine 25:08
Well, I certainly talked about all my many failures. And that I'm still here and still going on. It has to do with resilience. Truly successful innovators, you know, it's interesting in Silicon Valley failure, they say, fail frequently, fail often, and fail big fail fast. No, we have to kind of adapt that mentality a bit within an academic structure. And that's not something we're used to, we're used to this really slow, incremental model. But the reality is, you should celebrate your failures as much as your successes because you learn way more from a failure than you do from a success, I think. And so I typically, that's kind of the advice I give us to, okay, let's dissect this, let's not dwell in it. But let's dissect it. Let's figure out what you would change or do differently next time. And then, and talk to me about what that next time looks like. And I find it when people can just get a little bit of distance step back and say, Okay, how can I put my scientific mind on this to figure out the analysis and analyze where I went wrong, or where things just didn't work out? Then they're more apt to be able to say, Okay, let's move on. And let's do better next time.
Mary Goldberg 26:25
Great analogy. Great advice. I think it brings it back into their wheelhouse, right? We all understand the scientific method and can relate that to product design. Certainly, you know, what, what hasn't worked, figure out why and, and then start again, refuel.
Cathy Bodine 26:42
That's right.
Mary Goldberg 26:45
Thank you, again, Cathy, for bringing these important issues to life, especially regarding the diversity and lack thereof in the innovation space within the US and that resides within many of our universities, and I encourage our listeners to learn more about the promotion and tenure, innovation and entrepreneurship project at Oregon State, and do your part in helping to make our innovation especially in the AT space, more diverse within your universities and beyond.
If you'd like ImpacTech, please review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you again for tuning in and continue to make an impact in whatever you do.
A quick note from our sponsors. IMPACT initiatives are being developed under a grant from the National Institute on Disability Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research. NIDILRR is a center within the Administration for Community Living, Department of Health and Human Services. IMPACT initiatives do not necessarily represent the policy of NIDILRR, ACL or HHS, and you should not assume endorsement by the federal government and the same goes for the University of Pittsburgh. We'd like to thank our ImpacTech guests and our production team at the University of Pittsburgh, Dr. Michelle Zorrilla from the Department of Rehab Science and Technology, Natalie Vasquez and Dr. Marie Norman, from the IDEA Lab at the Institute for Clinical Research Education.